First, I'll cut and paste her blog post, then follow it up with the facebook conversation that got her so worked up so you can evaluate her judgement. I've removed all the names of those involved from the original source as well as from her blog because I'm not a dick.
I've added a few interjections here and there in red font to keep everything clear. Be sure to read the original post below her rant to see the parts she omits, else you may think I'm really as dim as she insists I am.
Oct __ 2010
Can arguing with atheists be as futile and frustrating as arguing with theists? Absolutely! You have to know that atheists can be just as stupid as religious people. I get proof of it almost every day on facebook.
This latest bout with the stupid was all about Satanism. A guy named (CD) (so I suspect it's not his real name) posted a picture of the South Park's Satan on his wall with some comments:
"[C]an I just state, that being an Atheist (hence rejecting xstianity*) does not mean I have an affiliation with you "satanists" [sic] out there. Maybe that works for others, but it doesnt [sic] with me. Im [sic] not entirely sure which is worse to be honest. Those that [sic] want Obi Wan Jesus as their saviour [ah, perhaps he's British; makes it all the more sad], or those that [sic] bow down to the cloven hooves of Darth Satan Vader. Both your little fairytales make me titter, but to be honest, if I really had to choose whos [sic] the most hilarious... [I had to remove about a dozen dots] think it might just be you pentagram scrawlers. And no, youre [sic] not in the bit scary. Seeing as most of you are spotty teenagers with a parent problem. LOL"
Ho hum, can I just state, that being an Atheist (hence rejecting xstianity) does not mean I have an affiliation with you "satanists" out there. Maybe that works for others, but it doesnt with me. Im not entirely sure which is worse to be honest. Those that want Obi Wan Jesus as their saviour, or those that bow down to the cloven hooves of Darth Satan Vader. Both your little fairytales make me titter, but to be honest, if I really had to choose whos the most hilarious........... I think it might just be you pentagram scrawlers. And no, youre not in the least bit scary. Seeing as most of you are spotty teenagers with a parent problem. LOL.
(CD) got some likes for that and the dissing of the Satanists began. I believe "ridiculous asses" was tossed in at one point.
(CD) added:
"I had a heated 'discussion' with one of those goat fanciers a while ago and I was told that satanism [sic] 'is the same as atheism' and that 'it also has the philosophy of humanism' [sic] wtf? lol. He defriended me though before I could stop laughing. :)))) I guess we dont [sic] talk about "satanists" [sic] much in our posts, but Im [sic] not having them on my bandwagon. If Im [sic] going to hell I'll send myself there. lol"
CD I know a pic like yours is just in humour (RS). Its just I had a heated "discussion" with one of those goat fanciers a while ago and I was told that satanism "is the same as atheism" and that "it also has the philosophy of humanism" wtf? lol. He defriended me though before I could stop laughing. :)))) I guess we dont talk about "satanists" much in our posts, but Im not having them on my bandwagon. If Im going to hell I'll send myself there. lol
October 25 at 11:07am · · 2 people ·
Aristotle's Muse Well said.
October 25 at 11:15am ·
So, I commented the following:
"Actually, true Satanism sees Satan as an archetype, not a god or real (imagined) entity. Satan is the archetype of the rejection of god and the authority imposed by god-belief. The archetype of human independence and freewill, etc. Satanists are usually atheists and/or Humanists, sometimes anarchists. It's only crazy people who are the kind of religious Satanists who claim to worship the 'devil' as an evil being."
Actually, yes, true Satanism sees Satan as an archetype, not a god or real (imagined) entity. Satan is the archetype of the rejection of god and the authority imposed by god-belief. The archetype of human independence and freewill, etc.
Satanists are usually atheists and/or Humanists, sometimes anarchists. It's only crazy people who are the kind of religious Satanists who claim to worship the "devil" as an evil being.
October 25 at 12:21pm · ·
And for the life of them, (CD) and his friends could not wrap their heads around this idea. They could not get it.
(CD) said: "[I]f all of what you said is true...then why have "satan" [sic] involved in it at all? ... Being a "satanist" [sic] but proclaiming you are an 'atheist' does not compute with me. Atheism (to me) is the rejection of theology (atheism = anti-theism) and 'satan' [sic] is part of xstian theology (it doesnt [sic] matter that 'he' [I can't figure out why he put he in quotes here] is the bad guy in the xstian fairytale or not). These wackos are still trying to win numbers by joining in with us and inferring [sic--I believe he means to say implying.] we're all the same. So to that i [sic] say, get the hell outta here! Lmao."
RS LMAO! Ridiculous asses.October 25 at 1:54pm · ·
AO um ok?October 25 at 2:58pm · ·- They truly are ridiculous (RS). And (DN), if all of what you said is true (to them, not to me), then why have "satan" involved in it at all? Why the need for a xstian mythological entity to say you reject a xstian mythological entity? Surely that is paradoxical (and hilarious)? Being a "satanist" but proclaiming you are an "atheist" does not compute with me. Atheism (to me) is the rejection of theology (atheism = anti-theism) and "satan" is part of xstian theology (it doesnt matter that "he" is the bad guy in the xstian fairytale or not). These wackos are still trying to win numbers by joining in with us and inferring we're all the same. So to that i say, get the hell outta here! Lmao.
October 25 at 3:46pm · · 2 people ·
Lmao, indeed. I suppose looking back on it now, it's obvious I'm dealing with teenagers. You just never know with facebook. More Satanist bashing followed. It was agreed that Satanists are just trying to get a rise out of people by using the name of Satan; they're getting off on the controversy; they're like emo kids whining that they get no respect, etc.
One girl said, "Substituting one god for another is still showing a complete lack of rational thought."
- Exactly right (CD). It's like saying that despite the fact that I don't have any belief in supernatural beings of any kind, I call myself a Christian... because I don't believe in Satan.
I'd say it's likely that they are simply trying to get a rise out of people by labeling themselves as "Satanists" while hiding behind a victim status of being misunderstood. (because of their own moniker no less)
Kind of like an emo kid with metal all over his face crying that people treat him differently because they "don't understand him".
October 25 at 3:59pm · · 2 people
AO or it can be a satanist wanna be christian creating this statements as well. There are always options..October 25 at 8:21pm · ·
AO Sounds like this created "god" has a bad case of split personality, (MB).October 25 at 11:42pm · ·
MC Well saidOctober 26 at 1:10am · ·
And I'm like, wtf? Can they not read? So, I tried again.
"I think it comes out of the idea that the Bible (or Genesis, at least) is a morality tale and Satan represents the good, the independent, the truth teller, etc."
- @(CD): I would have to look into it more. I think it comes out of the idea that the Bible (or Genesis, at least) is a morality tale and Satan represents the good, the independent, the truth teller, etc. Satan is not, if you read the book, the bad guy. Especially in the story of Job. God is the bad guy.
I would agree with you in many ways. I certainly see no point in adopting a philosophy based on an archaic religion. But then, I see no point in Humanism either.
The few Satanists I've met were personable, cool people. I didn't feel they were trying to "win numbers" by joining atheists. They just are atheists...with a funky ideology.
October 26 at 2:48am · ·
Silly me; I didn't realize I was talking to idiots.
(I concede that some of the people that got into the conversation late and posted only once or twice didn't understand her assertion that "real Satanists" reject supernatural beings, but (CD) and myself quite obviously understood what she was trying to say, as is exemplified here)
(CD) replied: "I accept that "satanists" [sic] in their forms (one kind seem to be directly satan [sic] worshippers and the other kind claim to have some form of ideology based on what you say) reject "God". But my issue is whats [sic] been claimed where they state that they are "atheists" in the universal sense of the word. Again, I will say they are NOT. Because if they truly were, they would distance themselves totally from a Xstain entity to describe themselves. ... Just why would you need to reference a mythological deity ... when you claim to want others (especially atheists) to accept your 'philosophy'? Youd [sic] just drop that nonsense and profess your ideology free from tags of medieval pitchforks and horns lol. Of course, people are welcome to create whatever strange mantra they like (as we are all too well aware), but its [sic] NOT pure atheism to me, and thats [sic] where my arguement [sic] lies."
- I accept that "satanists" in their forms (one kind seem to be directly satan worshippers and the other kind claim to have some form of ideology based on what you say) reject "God". But my issue is whats been claimed where they state that they are "atheists" in the universal sense of the word. Again, I will say they are NOT. Because if they truly were, they would distance themselves totally from a Xstain entity to describe themselves. I can see your point about the Xstain God being the bad guy in the bible. Most atheists have made this comparison many times whilst trying to underline how horrible he was. But I still have to stand my ground on what Ive said already. Just why would you need to reference a mythological deity (if thats not overstating (ON)'s status) when you claim to want others (especially atheists) to accept your "philosophy"? You'd just drop that nonsense and profess your ideology free from tags of medieval pitchforks and horns lol. Of course, people are welcome to create whatever strange mantra they like (as we are all too well aware), but its NOT pure atheism to me, and thats where my arguement lies.
October 26 at 3:08am · ·
So, I said: "Well, now wait a minute, (CD). 'Pure atheism' is nothing more than lack of belief in gods. The 'intellectual' Satanists to which I refer fit atheism in its purist form. You seem to be insisting that atheists must not only lack belief in gods, but fit a certain standard you have created: they must also 'distance themselves totally from a Xstain entity to describe them[selves].'
"There are atheists who believe in UFO visitations, ghosts, astrology, reincarnation, etc. There are atheists who believe all sorts of stupid things. I'm a rationalist. I don't believe in belief. But you won't hear me saying, 'well, you can't be an atheist unless you distance yourself from all manner of stupid thinking.'
"It doesn't work that way. They don't believe in gods. Satan isn't real to them, he's an archetype. The god of the Bible isn't real, he's an archetype. Yes, they're a bit literary and perhaps a tad snooty. But they're still atheists. Yes, it's confusing to stupid people who can't tell the difference between that kind of Satanist and the other kind of Satanist. (It's really fairly easy, the crazy kind don't use big words or have college degrees.) But I personally never had much toleration for black/white thinkers, so confusing stupid people never really bothers me."
- Well, now wait a minute, (CD). "Pure atheism" is nothing more than lack of belief in gods. The "intellectual" Satanists to which I refer fit atheism in its purist form. You seem to be insisting that atheists must not only lack belief in gods, but fit a certain standard you have created: they must also "distance themselves totally from a Xstain entity to describe them[selves]."
There are atheists who believe in UFO visitations, ghosts, astrology, reincarnation, etc. There are atheists who believe all sorts of stupid things. I'm a rationalist. I don't believe in belief. But you won't hear me saying, "well, you can't be an atheist unless you distance yourself from all manner of stupid thinking."
It doesn't work that way. They don't believe in gods. Satan isn't real to them, he's an archetype. The god of the Bible isn't real, he's an archetype. Yes, they're a bit literary and perhaps a tad snooty. But they're still atheists. Yes, it's confusing to stupid people who can't tell the difference between that kind of Satanist and the other kind of Satanist. (It's really fairly easy, the crazy kind don't use big words or have college degrees.) But I personally never had much toleration for black/white thinkers, so confusing stupid people never really bothers me.
October 26 at 3:45am · ·
Did I get through? Did I show clearly that atheism is merely lack of belief in gods and these kinds of Satanists do not believe in gods? No. Apparently not.
(CD) said: "The term 'pure atheism' was merely a figure of speech where i [sic] was trying to imply the notion of atheism without various apendages [sic] (ie. Satan). I wasnt [sic] saying that it exists as a form. You are correct though, it surprises me a lot too... that having the insight to see the pointlessness of "god" does not necessarily carry through to some peoples [sic] views of the rest of reality. Funny enough, ive [sic] had this debate before about ufos, ghosts, etc and had a heated discussion (particularly about ghosts) as to how you can reject one form of superstition and embrace another. And i [sic] guess this is more of the same when i [sic] think of it.
- The term "pure atheism" was merely a figure of speech (DN) where i was trying to imply the notion of atheism without various apendages (ie. Satan). I wasnt saying that it exists as a form. You are correct though, it surprises me a lot too that having the insight to see the pointlessness of "god" does not necessarily carry through to some peoples views of the rest of reality. Funny enough, ive had this debate before about ufos, ghosts, etc and had a heated discussion (particularly about ghosts) as to how you can reject one form of superstition and embrace another. And i guess this is more of the same when i think of it.
October 26 at 4:56am · ·
"Except," I replied, "that you seem to continue to miss the point that these Satanists embrace no superstition, as regards their Satanism. If I'm wrong, I apologize, but your last sentence seemed to show that."
- DN Except that you seem to continue to miss the point that these Satanists embrace no superstition, as regards their Satanism. If I'm wrong, I apologize, but your last sentence seemed to show that.October 26 at 5:16am · ·
(CD) replied: "I doubt i [sic] can add any more to this. To me, calling yourself a satanist [sic] and an atheist, is like calling yourself a christian [sic] and an atheist. It doesnt [sic] make any sense. And basing your "philosophy" on a fictional, 2000yr old, fallen angel is plain absurd. But hey, takes allsorts [sic]."
- CD I doubt i can add any more to this. To me, calling yourself a satanist and an atheist, is like calling yourself a christian and an atheist. It doesnt make any sense. And basing your "philosophy" on a fictional, 2000yr old, fallen angel is plain absurd. But hey, takes allsorts.October 26 at 5:30am · ·
So, I said, "If I can't get you to see the difference between believing that there is a god and Jesus was his son and therefore I'm a Christian, and thinking that the character of Scarlett O'Hara represents the struggle between my base desires and my rational acceptance of life's fragility and hope [I pulled all that out my arse on the spot!] (Well whoopty fuckin' doo!) and therefore I will follow the philosophy of O'Hara-ism, then I suppose you are correct: you can add no more to this."
- If I can't get you to see the difference between believing that there is a god and Jesus was his son and therefore I'm a Christian, and thinking that the character of Scarlett O'Hara represents the struggle between my base desires and my rational acceptance of life's fragility and hope and therefore I will follow the philosophy of O'Hara-ism, then I suppose you are correct: you can add no more to this.
And to really mess with you, I used to be a Christian atheist, before I read the New Testament and deicided Jesus wasn't so great a philosopher as I'd been led to believe.
October 26 at 5:59am · ·
Was I getting a tad snippy? Yes.
(CD) replied with some kind of gibberish about being a worshiper of hard, cold science, which I really could have messed with him about. But I was getting tired of the stupidity. Here was a guy saying that to be an atheist, you had to reject all things Christian. And yet, here he was using this label "atheist" which is based completely on theism. If he's so damned puritanical about it, how can he base his lack of belief on theism itself? Shouldn't he call himself a Bright or something?
- I guess i strive to see the world in black and white (DN) -something you said you dont like very much lol. But if i worship anything at all on this blue planet its science, and i like to think that it strives to see the world as black and white too. Science is not happy with grey areas either. To me, it is the best thing we have to learn what the world and the universe is all about. True, science without doubt, could be wrong in its view of a few things we think we know today, but its self correcting, self reviewing, and self analyzing which inevitably gives us the correct answer in the end. So as a critical, hard facts, cold assed, science where i find it damn hard to take on board humanities bizarre foibles and superstitions. Thats not to say people arent entitled to them, but i like to know where the lines are. And if xstian fundamentalists call me a satan worshipper i will do all i can to tell them theyre wrong. So i guess i'll just have to fight the satanists as well now. Oh, if only the world was simple lol.
Btw, i enjoyed our debate. One of the things i truly love about the networking on FB. So many people, so many views, and some very intellectual brains at work (no, that doesnt include me lol). We shall beg to differ, which is fine. As what a boring world it would be if we all agreed :)
October 26 at 6:19am · · 1 person ·
- AO [---eoc---]October 26 at 6:51am · ·
- Aristotle's Muse urghhh.October 26 at 7:33pm ·
AO I really don't see any resemblence between Satan worshippers and Atheist, (DN), from what I read, you are probably confusing atheist with agnostics.October 27 at 10:01am · ·- DN How hard can it be to understand? They do not believe in gods of any kind, therefore, they are atheists.October 27 at 10:33am · ·
- Ok, they don't believe in any gods. We get that. Why do they name themselves after a god? Why would they do that? Satan is a character from christianity, why use that name to identify yourself?
I believe you when you say that some people who call themselves satanists do not believe in satan or gods. That being said, for what purpous would they use that name other than to get a rise out of people? Why not call themselves Paganistic Nonbelievers or Earthists? Or for that matter, Buddhists or Hindus or Christians? If you're going to name yourself the same thing as another group of people who worship a supernatural being, why choose Satan rather than something with less negative connotations? Doesn't that seem purposefully misleading?
The whole situation seems very childish and is nothing but detremental to atheists and the progress we have made and are trying to make. We don't need more reasons for Christians to assert that atheists are really Satan worshipers. I'm tired of hearing it.
October 27 at 12:54pm · · 1 person
Then one of his friends who calls himself Aristotle's Muse decided to show himself to be a complete ass and offer this analogy for why Satanists are not allowed to call themselves atheists:
I would like to interject here and point out that I entered this conversation much earlier, but was away for a time doing other things before continuing in the conversation a few posts prior to this one. It seems it suits her much better to pass over my previous statements that completely negate her assertion that I do not understand her point that Satanists are essentially atheists.
"It's like this," he says. "Imagine I'm standing in a trench along with my fellow atheists staring down my sight at the christian [sic] opposition forces entrenched ahead of me. It's a heated battle, and although we are heavily outnumbered, we are making real gains because we have a huge stockpile of ammo (facts and logic) while the bad guys [sic] ammunition is almost entirely depleted. It looks like it's only a matter of time before they're left with nothing but sticks and stones we can overtake them and claim victory.
"I'm standing shoulder to shoulder with my skeptic brothers; sniping off fundamentalists with logic and reason.
"Suddenly along comes Private Satanist running up behind our front line screaming 'I'm one of you guys! I'm one of you guys!' He then proceeds to grab handfulls [sic] of argument points from my ammo box and throw them over my shoulder at the Christians.
'Did you see that guys? I hit that one in the shoulder! That looks like it stings; huh guys?!'
"Meanwhile the opposing Christians cheer in celebration their newfound source of ammunition.
"Do you know what I do in that situation? I turn 180 degrees and punch private Satanist square the face. 'GET THE FUCK OFF MY TEAM ASSHOLE!'"
- It's like this... Imagine I'm standing in a trench along with my fellow atheists staring down my sight at the christian opposition forces entrenched ahead of me. It's a heated battle, and although we are heavily outnumbered, we are making real gains because we have a huge stockpile of ammo (facts and logic) while the bad guys ammunition is almost entirely depleted. It looks like it's only a matter of time before they're left with nothing but sticks and stones we can overtake them and claim victory.
I'm standing shoulder to shoulder with my skeptic brothers; sniping off fundamentalists with logic and reason.
Suddenly along comes Private Satanist running up behind our front line screaming "I'm one of you guys! I'm one of you guys!" He then proceeds to grab handfulls of argument points from my ammo box and throw them over my shoulder at the Christians.
"Did you see that guys? I hit that one in the shoulder! That looks like it stings; huh guys?!"
Meanwhile the opposing Christians cheer in celebration their newfound source of ammunition.
Do you know what I do in that situation? I turn 180 degrees and punch private Satanist square the face. "GET THE FUCK OFF MY TEAM ASSHOLE!"
October 27 at 12:54pm ·
So Aristotle's Muse is just pissed off that atheism isn't more exclusive. He'd like the word to mean more than it does. And he's quite the ignorant bigot isn't he? He doesn't even understand Satanism and he thinks that Satanists calling themselves atheists somehow gives religion an edge over his logic and facts. I mean, look at the stupid analogy! The atheists' ammo is logic and facts. How is a Satanist calling himself a Christian handing the Christians logic and facts? It makes no sense.
And the "facts" remain: atheism is merely lack of belief in deity and lots of atheists are stupid.
Then along comes some little dude with a weird unpronounceable name who just mucks it all up again with his inability to read and understand simple English.
"I really don't see any resemblence [sic] between Satan worshippers and Atheist, [sic] from [sic] what I read, you are probably confusing atheist [sic] with agnostics...It really doesn't make sense why Satanist [sic] are atheist when they use the name of a mystical [sic--because he doesn't mean mystical; he means mythical] creature that another mystical [sic] creature created...Either she is confuse [sic] or she is must [sic] making this up."I said none of those things, they were posted by others and she tacked them on here and attributed them to me.
- "why use that name to identify yourself?"
I answered this question in my very first post in this thread. Satan is the archetype of human independence and freewill. Geez. Do I need to shout or something?
I guess Satanists don't give a crap what Christians think. Christians who can't understand what they stand for are stupid. If you want to know more about them, go ask them, not me.
All I seem to be doing now is repeating myself, so I'm done with this. Thanks for the discussion everyone.
October 27 at 1:14pm · · - Aristotle's Muse There are much better archetypes of human independence and free will that Satan. Ones that aren't also the quintessential archetype of all that is evil in the world.October 27 at 1:21pm ·
AO Either she is confuse or she is must making this up.October 27 at 8:02pm · ·
Now I'm the one lmao-ing. Is this guy for real? And don't even get me started on the agnostics!
By this point I'm really tired of repeating myself and talking to idiots so I said, "You're right. A 'true' atheist would never do such a thing. Clearly they don't really understand what atheism means. I bet they don't even know what 'archetype' means. Heck, I'm probably not even a real atheist. I'm so confused!"
- DN You're right, (AO). A "true" atheist would never do such a thing. Clearly they don't really understand what atheism means. I bet they don't even know what "archetype" means. Heck, I'm probably not even a real atheist. I'm so confused!October 28 at 3:17am · ·
To which (AO) said (unbelievably): "You can quit the sarcasm now, I'm not buying it... And to be honest there is no such thing as a true atheist. just [sic] an atheist."
AO You can quit the sarcasm now, Ms. Narciso, I'm not buying it..October 28 at 1:10pm · ·
AO And to be honest there is no such thing as a true atheist.. just an atheist.October 28 at 1:30pm · ·
- DN I guess you don't understand sarcasm, after all. ;)October 28 at 2:07pm · ·
AO Then if that is not sarcasm its mockery, ;)October 28 at 2:18pm · ·
AO Either one is really not appreciated.October 28 at 2:20pm · ·
So, he's not buying the sarcasm, but he swallows it anyway. I suppose I should be feeling sympathy at this point. But the only real pity I feel is for myself for once again responding to stupidity and trying to educate stupid people. I might as well have been talking to fundamentalist Christians.
*I'm not sure I understand the abbreviation (CD) uses: xstianity. If X is supposed to stand for Christ, it should be xian; but nobody writes it that way. It's always xtian. I have no idea what (CD)'s doing.
Well. That was quite the angry tirade now wasn't it! I hope I didn't accidentally leave in anyone's name. If so, I apologize.
I especially like the pretentious way she corrects everyone's spelling and grammar. Oh, and the way she makes fun of (AO) for having poor English skills, regardless of the fact that he lives in Southeast Asia. He's really the only one that didn't fully understand what she was getting at as the conversation continued on.
To be fair... Yeah, perhaps it was a crude analogy. But Jesus Christ Monkey-Balls, did she just completely miss the boat on that one or what? I made it clear that people calling themselves atheists and Satanists simultaneously give Christians one more thing to blather on about. I'm tired of debating creationists that insist atheists are really Satan worshipers. Somehow she seemed to have missed it entirely.
Plus, I wasn't going to say this but, she's a bit of a bitch, isn't she?
I especially like the pretentious way she corrects everyone's spelling and grammar. Oh, and the way she makes fun of (AO) for having poor English skills, regardless of the fact that he lives in Southeast Asia. He's really the only one that didn't fully understand what she was getting at as the conversation continued on.
To be fair... Yeah, perhaps it was a crude analogy. But Jesus Christ Monkey-Balls, did she just completely miss the boat on that one or what? I made it clear that people calling themselves atheists and Satanists simultaneously give Christians one more thing to blather on about. I'm tired of debating creationists that insist atheists are really Satan worshipers. Somehow she seemed to have missed it entirely.
Plus, I wasn't going to say this but, she's a bit of a bitch, isn't she?
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