A debate between Aristotle's Muse and a creationist.

This page is a chronological documentation of an ongoing debate on facebook between myself and creationist Ejobi Joe.  I apologize for the sometimes sub-par writing structure.  I didn't write these to be posted on a blog, only as a quick post on some random facebook wall.  To put things in context, Joe's posts are random god affirming interjections posted randomly in an atheist facebook group page.  This is why my responses are often less than polite. 

If you ever find yourself wondering what it is atheists find so frustrating about the "faithful", this should put to rest any questions you may have on the subject.


Posted to atheist discussion board:
September 10 at 10:55am

Ejobi Joe
God created everything perfect until man made it imperfect!

Aristotle's Muse
If everything god created was perfect, how could man, (who god created in his ow image must also be perfect) make it imperfect (to use your wording)
I assume you are referring to the mythological fall from grace with Adam and Eve with eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge; complete with a talking snake. 

Well... Let me tell you!!!
Here are the possibilities...

1 God is essentially an angry child with a magnifying glass. He, being all knowing, created man and woman with a purposeful propensity to disobey god and eat the fruit of knowledge. Thus, he created mankind with the expressed intent of making him eternally suffer. Why else would he place the tree there in the first place after all? And in his all encompassing all seeing eye, why would he not have stopped eve from eating the fruit when she first pondered the possibility?

2 God, is not perfect and so could not create a perfect world with perfect people, hence the transgression.

3. The entire story is bullshit.

Look, I can see why you like this story, because it illustrates an angry, vengeful god that rewards ignorance and punishes knowledge. Such a situation can do nothing but work in your favor. However, again, I have to offer you the sound advice to stop persisting in bronze age mythology and join the 21st century. The world is a wonderful place, and your time on it is short. A life is wasted that spends it perusing such fairy tales. There is no eternal life my friend, what you have is what you have. Live - love - and experience all that you can in your short time, because in the not so very far away future, you will not be able to regret that you hadn't.
Aristotle's Muse
In addition to that, Joe, why would a perfect god punish his creations for eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge? If they had not eaten the fruit, then they could not have known it was evil to do so. They did not yet have the ability to understand evil. Only after Eve had eaten the fruit did she understand that it was evil to do so.

What you apparently believe is that your god cursed all of mankind to eternal suffering and banishment from paradise because our oldest ancestor did something that she could not possibly have understood was wrong.

Why would you worship such a horrible character? Is this what you mean when you cite the bible as the source of morality? Does this seem moral to you?

No response from Ejobi Joe

Posted to atheist discussion board:
September 11 at 11:06am

Ejobi Joe. 
The life on earth is intricate and perfect and therefore needs a perfect creator!

Aristotle's Muse
That intricate perfection isn't so perfect, it's only adequate to sustain life.  Life evolved to be very complex... however, it is not perfect. Hence cancer.

The world seems perfectly suited to us because that is where we evolved. If life on Earth were unsustainable, we wouldn't be here to notice how nicely it fits our needs. If there are methane/silicon based life forms elswhere in the universe, I'm sure they would wonder at how amazingly suited for life their planet is, however such a planet would be far too cold and toxic to sustain human life. We wouldn't share their opinion at all. See how that works?

No response from Ejobi Joe

Posted to atheist discussion board:
October 14 at 3:42am

Ejobi Joe
So who put the secrets there in the universe(or they just happened to be there!)?

Aristotle's Muse
So if there is a creator, who put him there (or he just happened to be there!)?

It's a case of the chicken or the egg Joe. That argument holds no weight rationally or logically. Only a few hundred years ago, lightning could not be explained by science. That does not mean that god was angrily throwing down thunderbolts, just that it had yet to be explained. It has since been explained, and we now know enough about the laws of electromagnetism to blow your mind. quantum mechanics etc. It's the same story with the THEORY of gravity and the germ THEORY of disease. They had simply not been explained. The bible says that disease and plagues are cased by essentially gods angry "magic" or by demonic possession. We now know it to be caused by microscopic single celled organisms. The bible was wrong about that one too.

We may be on the edge of having a unified theory of relativity with a handful of new branches of theoretical physics, the most well known being quantum string theory and M theory. When that happens, there's a high likelihood that we will know how the universe came into existence or if it has, in fact, always been here. Or if it is only one of a infinite number of universes, each with it's own different sets of physical laws such as what is described in the hypothesis of the multiverse.

Like I've said before, simply cramming your particular brand of bronze age mythology into the cracks in understanding that science has not yet properly filled just because you think it looks pretty there is not good policy. I, quite frankly, can't understand how you can say such things without reeling in embarrassment.

No response from Ejobi Joe
Posted to atheist discussion board:
September 13 at 7:54am

Ejobi Joe

It's so easy to mess with Atheists. Just use a bit of simple logic and watch their heads blow up!

Ejobi Joe
They love the words:idiot,moron,stupid........!

Aristotle's Muse
Did you know that people used to have no idea where disease came from? It's true, it was a complete mystery! Somebody was healthy, then suddenly, they were dying.

Then, other people within close proximity to them would begin getting sick as well. How could something like this happen without any apparent cause!?!?!
Well, people did exactly the same thing you are doing. goddidit
We now know, thanks to Pasteur and his germ theory of disease (Yes, the BELIEF that germs cause diseases is, in fact, a THEORY -as is gravity) we know that microbes cause disease, not the angry wrath of god.
The same can be said for every single other natural phenomenon in the universe. Before we knew why... goddidit
Look, mankind doesn't know answers to every single unknown. If they did, there would be no need for science or scientists. However, simply saying goddidit is not an answer.
Sure, a god is possible. There's no reason to suspect that gods do exist however. The more time goes on, more of what is unknown becomes what is known due to scientific progress, and there is less and less room for people like yourself to irrationally assert that goddidit.
Aristotle's Muse
It is also possible that I am the reincarnation of Jesus Christ. That doesn't mean that it is at all probable.

No response from Ejobi Joe
Posted to atheist discussion board:
September 16 at 6:36am

Ejobi Joe
Poor little atheists!
Aristotle's Muse
Look guy, your ranting isn't really doing anything here. We see your posts, we read them, but it takes too much energy to spell out for you exactly why you are wrong. Especially when we know that you don't care how much evidence we show and how much sense we make. It's not worth the wasted breath.

We don't have faith that you are wrong, we don't BELIEVE that you are wrong. We actually know that you are wrong. Let me state that again, we don't believe, we don't have faith, we KNOW. If you'd take a moment to consider what we say to you instead of running around ranting in circular logic like a chicken with it's head cut off, you might actually understand that.

These people largely ignore you the same way we ignore the schizophrenic at the bus stop arguing with an invisible person. We KNOW that he is delusional, but we would never be able to convince him of it, regardless of how much we try prove it to him, so it's just not worth anyone's effort. We simply let him continue ranting about nonsense to invisible people and we carry on being normal.

No response from Ejobi Joe
Posted to atheist discussion board:
September 19th at 8:31am

Ejobi Joe
God exists atheists!This is the proof scientifically:

"Science brings men nearer to God" - Louis Pasteur "The FOOL hath said in his heart, there is no God".- Psalms 14:1 Atheists, please stop making claims without support or scientific evidence. Also, please stop asking questions which were already answered in this video.
Aristotle's Muse
Ok buddy, here we go...

Look, if the existence of a god could be proven, or was even shown to be remotely likely, scientists would embrace it. Scientists are not evil god haters trying desperately to hide the evidence of a god, they are simply rational people using reason, logic, and experiment to uncover truths and expand human knowledge of the cosmos. To promote understanding.

The simple fact that the scientific community calls these claims bogus, while offering evidence and rational reasons as to why, should be enough evidence to convince you that you are mistaken. The only way you could continue believing that what is in this video is anything but wishful thinking is if you purposefully believe in a delusional conspiracy theory. That you believe science and every one of it's practitioners have formed a secret society that meet behind closed doors to ensure that the proof of the existence of YOUR god is suppressed... for some reason.

I know it's painful to consider that you have spent so much time and energy on a intellectual dead end, but I think you would do yourself only good to re-evaluate your reasoning and cut your losses. You don't need to continue wasting yourself on nonsense.

Eobi Joe
Aristotle,I hope you have the audacy to use logic here to interpret situations not relying on science which you have little knowledge about.Scince has a lot of shortfalls and can't be a standard to determine the unknown

Aistotle's Muse
That's what science is, it's a way of learning and turning the unknown into the understood. Science isn't a body of knowledge, it's a way of uncovering the truth. What you are doing is thrusting a god into what you personally do not understand. God doesn't belong there any more than any other random assertion. Can you explain to me why Zeus didn't create the universe?

And besides that, whoever made the video completely misunderstands cosmology, as do you obviously. The universe wasn't "created" at the big bang. It existed previously to the big bang as a singularity. It only "started" at the big bang in the sense that that is when it gained the physical properties familiar to us today.

I'm sure you've heard of the equation E=mc2 and I'm also equally sure that you have absolutely no idea what it means. E=mc2 is an equation used to calculate the equivalent energy of mass. Mass and energy cannot be destroyed, but they can be interchanged. This is why nuclear bombs work and why the sun produces light.

Now, before the big bang, all mass currently in the universe was in the form of energy, and space was infinitesimally small, hence the term "singularity".

So, your video is completely without merit. Don't you find it suspect that the creationists you're believing are trying to use science to discredit science? Don't you find that logical impossibility just a little unsettling?.

We can directly observe the after effects of the big bang in the form of electromagnetic background radiation in the for of microwaves. All of the predictions we can make by calculating the temperature of the universe in the first few quintillionths of a second after the big bang and how they would effectively create microwave and other electromagnetic background radiation are directly observable in every direction in all parts of the sky at every moment. Meaning we can essentially see the heat signature of the big bang and it matches EXACTLY what we would expect to see if a big bang occurred.

We can measure the rate of expansion of the universe by measuring the red-shift in the spectral signature of galaxies, and can see that far away galaxies are less mature in their evolution than ones closer to us (at least as they appear to us due to the delay caused by the speed of light which we know is exactly 299,792,458 meters per second thanks to... science.

This isn't a matter of faith Joe. I've said this before, scientists don't believe these things, they know. Just like we know that the sun goes around the earth and the earth isn't flat, dispite the fact that the bible states otherwise.

Ejobi Joe
Pls Aristotle refer to this link instead of me writting everything down:
Click here to read half retarded crationist article by Michael Horner

Aristotle's Muse
Reading that article is like pins and daggers in my brain. It is utterly riddled with half truths and complete lies, circular reasoning and blaring logical fallacies. I've already explained to you that the universe didn't "begin" in the sense that you believe it did.

Additionally, regardless of whether it did or not, saying that the infinite is impossible, so the only rational explanation is to insert god (who doesn't need to follow such rules) is the rational explanation is absolutely ridiculous and holds no rational or logical merit. Again - you are simply thrusting god into things that you cannot explain with no reason other than because you think he looks pretty there.

This is the real issue here Joey boy. If this baloney held up to scientific scrutiny, it would, in fact, BE science and would be accepted as the truth the world over and it would be paraded on television and all the worlds peoples would believe what you currently do.

I'll say it again, the only way you can believe this is if you actually believe that all the worlds greatest thinkers are somehow in cahoots with each other to convince everyone that there is not a god, even though they know there is.

Is that what you believe? That all the worlds scientists somehow and for some reason all know these things you are saying, but they suppress this information in order to mislead the public? That you and
Dr. Coocoo-bananas Michael Horner are the only non-scientists (in the sense of the term that scientists are god hating conspirators) who've ever taken the time to compare and contrast the issue, and everyone else is too lazy or too stupid to understand? That you and your small camp of conspiracy theorists are the only smart people in a world full of evil truth concealing god haters?

It seems as though that is what you believe Joe, and I gotta tell ya buddy, it sounds like the rantings of a madman to me.

No reply from Ejobi Joe


Nearly 1 month later...

Posted to atheist discussion board:
October 14 at 4:58am

Ejobi Joe
ATHEIST: Adults without God are stupid(fools)

Ejobi Joe
What evidence can a robot find in itself to know the factory it was manufactured from and who manufactured it?This could give clue for the evidence for man's creator!

Aristotle's Muse
Ah Joe, where have you been? I missed you!

Hooray! Here we go!

A robot could find evidence in it's component parts that it was built in a factory. There are tabs on molded steel, scratches on it's surface left from a conveyor belt, fingerprints on all of it's surfaces, lubricants refined from petroleum which have the chemical signatures of carbon based biological origin, an operators manual in the glove compartment, and a sticker that says "made in Japan".

We humans... know what we have? Tons and tons of evidence that we came from quadrupedal ancestors, and before them fish, and before them invertebrates, all the way down to our cellular structure that shows evidence that we originally came from single celled organisms and them from free floating independent versions of their current constituent parts (such as ribosomes and mitochondrea) and them from simple self replicating carbon based molecules.

The problem, Joe, is that you don't know any of these things, likely because you;

1. avoid any known facts that could shake your faith in fear of going to hell.

2. avoid any known facts that refute your beliefs because it makes you feel frightened of expending so much time and energy on something that may not be true.

3. Lived your life surrounded by people just like you who purposefully put a lot of effort into NOT knowing. Into purposefully avoiding things that the rest of the world absolutely knows as fact.

If the only people you have any contact with with reaffirms and reinforces your belief in the mythology of a tribe of nomadic bull sacrificing bronze age goat herders (e.g. christianity), it's hard to break free, and for that, I do not blame you. However, arguing with people who don't subscribe to your superstitions is, I would say, a foolhardy endeavor on your part.

No response from Ejobi Joe
Posted to Atheist discussion board:
Oct 19th at 6:23am

Aristotle's Muse
Alright Joe. I think we've been going about this the wrong way. We've been listening to you make the same claims over and over, and we've been refuting your claims with evidence, unsuccessfully because you are purposefully choosing to ignore facts and randomly change the subject or abruptly end the conversation. How about this Joe. Why don't you answer a question for me this time.

A few questions for you Joe...

Who was born as the son of gody by a mortal virgin mother, and was known as the "Saviour of the world"? Before his birth, prophets foretold of his birth and that he would be king. This of course instigated a search for the infant savior by the government in power to kill him before he could fulfill his destiny, forcing the pregnant virgin mother and her husband to flee, finding refuge in a nearby town where she gave birth, surrounded by livestock because the inns were all full. After growing up, this "Son of God" was shown all the kingdoms of the world from a high mountain.

He also walked on water and when he met his end his mother and his favorite disciple stood by him. He then tells his mother: "Do not cry, I'm going to heaven". When he dies he utters: "It is finished" and the earth trembles and darkness covers the land. (remember "the passion") Then he ascended to heaven.

His name was of course...Herecles.

Now, who was "the true Son of God", born by a mortal virgin mother, and often presented as the venerated newborn infant, or depicted riding a donkey. He healed the sick and performed many miracles, among those making wine from water. He was killed but resurrected from the dead three days later to became immortal. The followers of this God often ate a holy meal in a kind of sacramental union with god to achieve immortality after their death. One of this god's finest achievements was his death, his sacrifice, which delivers the whole human kind to heaven.

The God's name is Dionysus.

The original "Light of the world" was the mediator between God and man and was born on the 25.th of December. Local shepherds witnessed his birth and gave him gifts. He had 12 disciples, and when his work was done on earth he gathered together to a last supper before his ascention to heaven. At doomsday he will return to pass judgment on both the living and the dead during the rapture. The righteous will go to heaven and the sinful will be killed in fire. Sunday is his sabbath day, and this religion gave us the seven days of the week. His followers called each other "brothers" and their leaders "fathers". They practiced babtism and established a sacrament of holy communion, where bread and wine were the holy Eucharist representing his flesh and blood. Above earth was heaven, and below the dark hell with demons and the sinners.

The 'Light of the World' is of course the sungod Mithra.

Who then, was the God whose mother was told by an angel that she would give birth to a holy child destined to be a Saviour? Even as a child he instructed the priests in the temple in religous matters, while his parents were looking for him. He started his religious career when he was roughly 30 years of age, and surrounded himself with 12 disciples. One of the disciples is his favorite another is a traitor. This God called himself "Son of Man" and was referred to as "Prophet", "Master" and "Lord". He accomplished many great wonders including healing the sick, (blind could see again and deaf hear etc.) and walking on water.

This god's name is Buddha.

This savior performed countless miracles, miracles well attested to by bystanders. He claimed to be the messiah, the savior and true king of the Jews.  He healed the sick and the crippled, restored sight to the blind, cast out demons, and even raised the dead. His birth was of a virgin, foretold by an angel. While still a child, he exhibited extraordinary knowledge of religious scripture. He reformed the corrupt and worldly religions of his day. He was crucified, rose from his tomb three days later and appeared to his disciples to prove to them his power over death, after which he ascended to Heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father. He was known as "the Son of God" His message is of love and compassion.

This god's name is Apollonius of Tyana

Then there is the God-man, the prophet, the founder of a great monotheistic religion that still exist today. He preached that there was only one true God, and his teachings focused on the eternal fight between good and evil. The teachings include the idea that the Saviour will wake the dead and pass judgment on all. The righteous go to Paradise and the sinful straight to a burning Hell. The very word of Paradise stems from this religion. This semigod started his career in his early thirties, and had a following of disciples.

And he was the Persian Zarathustra.

The problem these gods present for Jesus is that all these deities and their corresponding religions are much OLDER than the time period that scripture place the life of Jesus, many by thousands of years. Some reaching their origins in pre-history. You don't have to look very hard to see where the authors of the Gospels got their "devine inspiration" when they created the Jewish adaptation of the popular God-Man/ World-Saviour of Antiquity.

Do not trivialize these saviors Joe, these sons of god. Don't brush them off as some half hearted attempt by a primitive culture. Hercules and his ilk are not just fanciful fairy tales like you might have assumed while reading about Cerberus and the sirens, or the "Lamb of god" Osiris, dictating the sun and the seasons in Egypt and the south of Europe and beyond.

The people that believed in these saviors were every bit as steadfast in their faith as anyone ever has been in the religions common today. Millions and millions of men fought and died for them. Wars were waged and nations were created and destroyed by faith in them. Men were executed for blaspheming them. Families including women and children were brutally murdered in their names. (which, by the way, has also been adopted by Christianity.)

These people would live, murder, and die for their gods, and in fact did so in staggering numbers. Millions of them, and they were every bit as real and intellectually capable as you or I.

That, is conviction Joe. That is faith. Do you have that kind of unshakable belief? Can you say that you share their conviction?

If not, then don't take these other gods as just humanities little mistakes or minor blips on the spiritual radar of history. Most of these religions lasted much longer than the 2000 years Christianity has been going.

Religion itself evolves, and the fossil record of theology is screaming for you to hear it, if you would just take a little time to listen to what is says.

So, finally, I come to my question Joe...
How is it that all of these religions share nearly the same story as Jesus? We know and can trace through history where all of these religions adopted their beliefs. We know from which religions new ones borrowed to create their own particular brand of theorcracy.

How is Christianity different from the religions that preceeded it if it hasn't a single original idea?

How is it that the story of Yeshua (Jesus) is so exactly like the man-gods before him?

How did this happen Joe?

Aristotle's Muse
Come on Joe, this is a question about the very religion you adhere to so feverishly. One would assume that this should be an easy question for you.

Ejobi Joe
Aristotle,looks you have been demonised to pervert the word of God;you know the Truth but you are bent on turning the truth to falsehood.You have purposed never to be on the right path but you are a desciple of anti Christ and you are here ...everyday to oppose anyhing concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ.
What next when the sun engulfs the earth,where will life be?

Aristotle's Muse
I'm not perverting anything, I'm just asking you a question. How can all of these previous religions so exactly match yours? Unless... GASP! Christianity evolved from an intermingling of other previous religions. Just...like...every...other...religion...on...earth. We can look at historical writings of early scriptures in all religions and watch them change and influence each other over time. This includes Christianity.
I'd be more than happy to cite a whooooole lot of examples of this if you would like Joe. I am not making this up. This is no conspiracy.

I'm not professing any opinion. I'm not making any false claims. I'm not doing anything but asking you a question Joe.

A question you still haven't answered.

Answer Joe, how is this possible if Jesus is the true son of god?

Ejobi Joe
Aristotle,looks like you are so interesting;but I hope your curiosity will yield something fruitful to the kingdom of God.You seem to be like Paul who was Saul and became converted to the great Faith.He worked hard to exterminate anything to do with the way of Christ but eventually became the greatest preacher of the gospel.You could be the type!
As for your question of your saviour who is like Jesus,how Jesus is special and is the only Saviour;I can tell you I had exactly the same questions in my mind before I got this revelation.
First to know Jesus Christ as God's Son needs a revelation and this can only be through the Holy Spirit(and this of course is very strange to you).
The whole issue goes back to the basic facts about the meaning of life (just like you have a purpose for your car).Life can't just be accidental,which just happened through a good chance which positioned the earth to where it is ,and there was none behind the trend of events.Creation is not just a probability result but a predestined,well designed creation.
It is only the jews who were the first humans to recognise the overrall God of the universe and all the events are recorded in the Holy Bible and that is how it comes to the New Testament up to now.
I will explain more to you shortly

Aristotle's Muse
Joe, you don't have to explain to me who Saul was. I was raised in a Christian home in a Christian family with Christian friends in a Christian school in a largely Christian town. I am very familiar with Christian mythology. However, I'm glad you seem to be in a less condemning mood; comparing me to Paul rather than accusing me of serving the Antichrist. Even though I did get a good laugh out of that. Personal attacks are a very lowly form of debate indeed and I'm glad you've steered away from it.

It seems you're misunderstanding the information I've provided though. Your answer seems to essentially be this; Jesus is the one true savior and son of god because you really feel like it.

I think you missed the point of my question. I was asking how you can explain why such a very large list of previous gods have a nearly identical story to Jesus. Why would there be so many gods who were born of a virgin mother on Dec 25th - in a manger - had 12 disciples - practiced the holy Eucharist with bread into body wine into blood etc. - died on easter - rose 3 days later - walked on water... The list goes on and on. Literally dozens of previous religions share nearly an identical story. Some of them predating Jesus by as much as 4 thousand years. (that is twice as long as Christianity has even existed)

Why is it that Jesus's story so closely resembles these other gods?

As much as I'd love to address the other things you have said in your last reply, I don't want this point to be lost. I'll address your other assertions once this subject has been resolved.

No reply from Ejobi Joe
Posted to Atheist discussion board:
Oct 20th th at 7:20pm

Aristotle's Muse
I'm starting to think that perhapse we should have an "official" debate Joe. Much like we are doing here, but elsewhere. What we are doing now is spread throughout a lot of posts. We could start a new discussion board for it.

One argument at a time, one point at a time. Question and responses until resolution - then continue to next question. No personal attacks, no assertion of fact just because "I feel it's true". Only a debate to determine what is rationally most probable (Christianity is true vs. not)

This is not a challenge, only a suggestion. No pressure, but I think it might get to the bottom of some things.

Look, I work in a hospital as a respiratory therapist. My profession is to save lives. That's what I do. I help people.

I'm a good guy, and I think I can help you to help yourself. And in that capacity, I think maybe then you could help others in Uganda.

I want to put our differences aside for just a moment Joe to say just one thing. Please please please don't support the Catholic Church's stance on prohibiting condoms to reduce the spread of HIV in Africa. Uganda has been very proactive about stemming the spread of this awful disease, and I would be very distraught indeed if I found that you supported such a horrible policy.

That being said, don't forget to answer my previous question about the origins of the "Hero's tale" of Jesus.

Aristotle's Muse
Alright Joe, sounds like a plan to me! As for right now, it's getting late on my side of the planet (which despite what the bible says, is, in fact, round).

I'll get back to you later with a place we can talk this out.

I'll impose no time limits on your replies. I'm sure you're a busy person just as well as I am.

Ejobi Joe
Thanks Aristotle for your kind gesture in this debate.I welcome us starting a page which will be a free discussion forum. I am also a Telecom engineer and I also love Jesus Christ as my Savior and Lord. As you have said there will be no personal attacks and we shall reach a consensus on most of this questions we may not understand now.
I am one of the strong supporters of the "ABC" means of fighting HIV(that is Abstinence,Being faithful and use of Condoms).Much as the Catholic church upholds Christ and God they have some doctrines which I don't agree with, that is why I don't pray in this church(I am not condemning them though).
I really welcome the tone at which we are communicating now.

Aristotle's Muse
Oh, good. It's so good to hear that Joe. To threaten people with eternal hellfire just for using condoms to save people from such a disease is a horrible, horrible thing. We have found at least one thing to agree on.

Alright Joe. I created a separate page.

Ejobi Joe and Aristotle's Muse debate page.  
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